Paper DBA!

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10-16-2002, 07:55 PM
PraKul

Hello Professionals,

This has been a very informative and useful forum. I have seen a number of experienced pros. giving their valuable input in this forum. Thanks to all these folks.

There has been a lot of talk, in this forum, about Paper-DBAs vs. DBAs with real-world experince.

It is true that no company will hire a paper-DBA just on the certification. But, as one does not have experience, he/she cannot be hired, and because one can't get hired, he/she cannot gain real-world experience as DBA.

It boils down to how to get a break, after becoming "paper-DBA". I have not seen a position of 'junior DBA'. (or a position where an inexperienced paper-dba can gain experience). I believe that most of the people who pass the OCP, have some IT experience (or already working as DBA).
In my case, i have been working as developer and now in the middle of dba-certification process (OCP).

Any suggestions are welcome!

Thanks a lot for your time and input.

PraKul
10-16-2002, 09:36 PM
danielwong

While, indeed , there's a lot of ppl who are so called paper certify. Disregard is Microsoft, Oracle or others.

Some of them can even took all the exams, by reading third party guides or dumps to get themselves to certify.And,never go through the practise or labs on how to use the product.

when, they apply for the jobs, they told the employer they know the stuffs. But, in the end, they can't work it out. Even for basic admin, tuning ,maintenance or others.

This certainly will lower down the values of the certs. I mean everyone have their own goals or motive to acheive. It's all up to individual. To know, what they wants.

Okie, if you are certify for Oracle. Everyday, you spend 2 hours or more to practise all the labs or simulation. Reading articles from Oracle Magazine, forums and books. And, you are able to go around without any problem, doing the administration, tunining, maintenance on the database.Become so confidence, you are able to manage the database. Go ahead and apply the DBA jobs. Why bother to wait.

When, ppl are born into this world, they came with nothing, we can't expect everyone know everything. we have to pick up knowledges, when, times comes by. I believe those ppl who work with database or others field. They started from scratch, slowly climb up their career path.

For my case, look at my certs, i hold quite no of them. Some ppl in this forum, dun even bother to check my background, what am i doing, if i face a problem, i posted a thread, they straight away tell you off. I am paper certified. I mean, we have to tactful in the sense of answering ppl questions and help them if we are able to. Not to bash ppl up for nothing. I would told them,if i am so called paper certify, we will post a problem, if we know the products, how fast, what kind of solutions are we going to apply, to solve this problem. They just disappear.

To mean, the way, i put in, might sound foolish or childish. We are working professional adults, why resort in this manner.

Most important,if you are really keen on taking up a Oracle DBA jobs, try to learn as much as possible, talk to ppl who are working with Oracle, learn from them. But, only learn from those, who are willigly to impart their skills to you. Dun bother those guys who keep talking nonsense and not willigly to help. Practise the Oracle till your test server crash or screw up. And solve it by yourself, if possible.

How to define a expert. An expert might not be a guru . Is a person who are able to find answers in the shortest time and solve it. Of course, they also must equip with good knowledges.

My advice, get certify, learn all the examples from the books, practise as hard as you can, seek advice from ppl, read as much books if possible. I believe you can find your own world in this DBA roles.

All the best to you.

Cheers!!!
10-16-2002, 09:55 PM
marist89

I've probably said this a thousand times in this forum, but being a DBA is not an entry level job.

My advice is to stay a developer. Learn all you can about Oracle and how it works. Learn the difference between production and development (and BTW, production is not the database with the better data). After a couple of years, you'll be ready for a Jr. DBA role.
10-16-2002, 11:24 PM
grjohnson

Quote:

Originally posted by marist89
I've probably said this a thousand times in this forum, but being a DBA is not an entry level job.

1001 times actually.... :)

I'm not getting involved in this discussion AGAIN... it must be posted int he forums every month.

*can't stay away*... dammit.

Okay, I think Experience first, certification later.
10-17-2002, 01:59 PM
freemind

It's combination of following:

A. Real hard work (if someone has not taken the shortcut for passing OCP)

B. Previous IT experience, particularly any kind of Database related exposure, does not matter whether it comes as a Developer or anything else

C. Presentation skill during the interview to give a reasonable comfort level about your abilities. I am not advocating to "misrepresent" during the interview but present the facts in more appropriate way so that it gives an impression that even though one is not having a real experience, he/she is ready to take on challenge.

D. Good fate to get a break

E. Ability to apply the knowledge in the job, also learn from mistakes and see how others are doing the work. Refer to many books, forum and any other source to see how the same work could have been done. After all DBA WORK IS NOT A ROCKET SCIENCE, it is a responsible job but with cautious approach one can definitely acquire the skill.
Remember one day each DBA had the same state as a new entry level DBA has. In fact things have become much easier for anyone to start as a DBA in present times with so much of resources available on internet and books.

F. Imagine, imagine and imagine about different scenarios in database and try to find a solution beforehand..a kind of proactive approach so that one is ready before problem hits.

I generally speaking would like new DBAs start in the above way. There are many who feel that DBAs can never be born and they come from a different world!

However, I must say that the reality is a far cry from the above, new DBAs are trying to take a shortcut approach. In the long run that shortcut approach is not going to help. Also, there are old seasoned DBAs who are not changing with times and have stuck with the old concepts and they are the ones who feel perhaps insecure and do not want to see the new DBAs coming in!
10-17-2002, 02:05 PM
marist89

Quote:

Originally posted by freemind
Also, there are old seasoned DBAs who are not changing with times and have stuck with the old concepts and they are the ones who feel perhaps insecure and do not want to see the new DBAs coming in!

I'm not sure if I should take offence to this or not...

The old DBAs are old because they've deleted control files while the database was up. We're old because we relied on exp as our backup methodology (Don't even get me started on that one). We're old because we're tired of chasing down ORA-600 and ORA-7445's that Oracle should have fixed in the .7 patchset. We're tired of telling every hot-shot newly minted "OCP DBA" that when you drop a partition, the global index is marked unusable. We've been there, we've done that.

You should operate your career as a business. If you see other businesses getting a technological edge on you, it's either time to upgrade your business or get into a new business. IBM isn't around today because they were good at building Typewriters and Mainframes.
10-17-2002, 02:17 PM
stecal

It's a catch-22 situation: It takes experience to get experience. You have to be proactive in your approach to getting a DBA - junior or otherwise - position. A lot of industries/companies are like that. How do you get SAP experience, for example? You can get lucky by being in a company that implements it. Same with Siebel. You take that experience and build on it. Oracle is not much different. Find a hole or opening that is Oracle-related (software quality assurance is an excellent springboard) and build on that experience. As a developer, you can do the same thing - become the "database expert" within your development group, take on all the database development tasks, offer to do (or learn how to) Oracle installs for your group, and so on. That gives you experience and sets you up to be a junior DBA (not that there are that many jr DBA jobs being advertised these days, and that leads to the same situation as any other job hunter - target a few companies, focus your resume, get informational interviews, etc.).
10-17-2002, 02:18 PM
freemind

No...I did not want to offend "ALL" the old seasoned DBAs. But see yourself around, there are many in this industry who do not welcome "changes". What you are pointing out is nothing but improvement in the software, having faced those problems in old times do not necessarily makes someone a better DBA. Like it or not "experience is not always the best to have", "unlearning curve" is longer than a "learning curve". There are many bright DBAs knocking the doors but what I was pointing out, there are "some" (not ALL) old seasoned DBAs who are in the interview boards, who for some reasons want to see only past experience, ignoring the fact that these fresh guys will bring some new concepts, bew ideas and they ought to be given reasonable chances.
I agree that it is the business and in the business what takes edge over anything else is "professionalism" and "cost-effectiveness". No wonder I hear many old seasoned DBAs mentioning about "bringing down their hourly rates", even though they have so much of experience, they can't command the market...!
10-18-2002, 04:04 AM
jovery

Just thought I'd add my 2 cents to this one ;)

I totally aggree with Jeff here, to say "experience is not always the best to have" is a little short sighted that fact that you may have new concepts and ideas does not necessairly mean they are good and/or useful. Anyone who has worked on Oracle (or indeed any mainstream software house) knows that newest is not always best.

A seasoned DBA will have experience of not only the Oracle product but will also be aware of the pitfalls of impleneting new technology too fast "just because it's there" generally because of their experience of cocking it up some time in the past. If you work in a mission critial environment the last thing you want is to employ somebody who steams in with 101 great ideas on how to improve your current installations without having the practial knowledge to backup the claim. Generally 90% of those great ideas and new concepts with cause severe disruptions simply because your application was never developed to embrace these tecnological advances - and how will you know that? ... only by expereience!

There is nothing wrong with obtaining a qualiaction without practical experience but you have to know your limits and sadly many don't - They think that because they have an OCP, MSCE, etc they are an expert and everything they have learnt runs exactly as it says in the manually and in the books, if only that where true :)

You have to learn to walk before you can run :)

Just my opinion

Regards
10-18-2002, 04:11 AM
pando

to pass OCP is not hard, probably only 5% of questions in the exams are tricky, you can afford to fail those 5% and still pass

but OCP questions are really basic stuffs
10-18-2002, 10:11 AM
freemind

I guess many of you have misunderstood my viewpoints. I do agree with you all that experience is a must to have for any mission critical system or any kind of sustainment process, you can't afford to mess with them. But what I am hinting at is not for the production systems where you will involve a fresh DBA who has just walked in, but during the development and enhancement processes. I will be very surprised that any organization would ask a DBA to just come in and take control of the Production or mission critical systems, there will of course be a transition phase.
However, my observations in general have been following w.r.t many old, seasoned and experienced DBAs:
1. Many of them ridicule the OCP process and in the process they hardly get a chance to even know about the newest features. Many of them have a syndrome of "I know everything..!" There are many new concepts evolving and they usually are missing something. Again not applicable for all old, experienced DBAs, so do not get offended if you are an old timer AND take pains to keep on updating yourself.
2. Sometimes they rely on their old concepts or experience more than referring to any new book or reference manuals. There are some old DBAs who have not accepted CBO fully and still insist for RBO and complex hints in the queries. There are some who still believe that Ratio based tuning is the best way to tune a database.
3. Many of the old DBAs could not cope up successfully with the newer concepts of Oracle, particularly Object Oriented (LOBs, Data Types etc.) and Java enhancements. Those who took the courses or went for OCP, certainly have better grip over these new features.

Well, I am not trying to create a division between old and fresh DBAs, the intent of my pointing out these deficiencies of some of the old time DBAs was to prove the point that if old time DBAs have an edge over the fresh DBAs by virtue of experience then New DBAs do have a distinct advantage with their latest knowledge over them. What is new today will become old tomorrow and the process will continue as has been in the past...!

[Edited by freemind on 10-18-2002 at 10:17 AM]
10-18-2002, 10:16 AM
marist89

Most hiring managers I know (but then again, I work with established companies that understand the value of data and not some fly-by-night .com company that develops a system with "trial" software) would rather hire experience than somebody who studied the newest, latest, greatest features of Oracle but has never laid their hands on a system. I'm not quite clear on what advantage that gives fresh OCPs, but if you say so...

[Edited by marist89 on 10-18-2002 at 10:20 AM]
10-18-2002, 10:25 AM
freemind

Depends what the hiring managers are looking for...if the database is old and critical, I agree all they will look for is "SOLID" experience as they point out in the requirements criteria!
However, there are some shrink wrapped, vendor supplied apps which use some of the latest features (after all whatever new features are coming , are not for the worse, sure there might be some bugs here and there but they have come to stay not to be tried just for fancy..!) and to support these kinds of databases, I know for sure that many hiring managers specifically ask for OCP or training on these new features (you can't have "experience" here for these new features).
10-18-2002, 11:47 AM
pando

Quote:

Originally posted by freemind
I guess many of you have misunderstood my viewpoints. I do agree with you all that experience is a must to have for any mission critical system or any kind of sustainment process, you can't afford to mess with them. But what I am hinting at is not for the production systems where you will involve a fresh DBA who has just walked in, but during the development and enhancement processes. I will be very surprised that any organization would ask a DBA to just come in and take control of the Production or mission critical systems, there will of course be a transition phase.
However, my observations in general have been following w.r.t many old, seasoned and experienced DBAs:
1. Many of them ridicule the OCP process and in the process they hardly get a chance to even know about the newest features. Many of them have a syndrome of "I know everything..!" There are many new concepts evolving and they usually are missing something. Again not applicable for all old, experienced DBAs, so do not get offended if you are an old timer AND take pains to keep on updating yourself.
2. Sometimes they rely on their old concepts or experience more than referring to any new book or reference manuals. There are some old DBAs who have not accepted CBO fully and still insist for RBO and complex hints in the queries. There are some who still believe that Ratio based tuning is the best way to tune a database.
3. Many of the old DBAs could not cope up successfully with the newer concepts of Oracle, particularly Object Oriented (LOBs, Data Types etc.) and Java enhancements. Those who took the courses or went for OCP, certainly have better grip over these new features.

Well, I am not trying to create a division between old and fresh DBAs, the intent of my pointing out these deficiencies of some of the old time DBAs was to prove the point that if old time DBAs have an edge over the fresh DBAs by virtue of experience then New DBAs do have a distinct advantage with their latest knowledge over them. What is new today will become old tomorrow and the process will continue as has been in the past...!

[Edited by freemind on 10-18-2002 at 10:17 AM]

regarding 1, mind you not getting OCP would not get you to know new features, I am an example, I passed 9i upgrade with no problems at all and hey all I read was the ILT course notes which is NOT detailed at all (if you think by reading ILT you can set up data guard or RAC we must be very wrong!)

regarding 2 since I am not old enough :D I cannot give opinion here, I can cope with CBO and event waits based tuning pretty well

regarding 3, being an OCP or passed the exams dont buy you the knowledge on object oriented at all, in fact in no course it talks about these stuffs

What one can do is be self-motivated and get himself to know the things

and as I mentioned the OCP tests are simply too simple, the questions are really a shame
10-18-2002, 12:27 PM
marist89

Quote:

Originally posted by freemind
I guess many of you have misunderstood my viewpoints. I do agree with you all that experience is a must to have for any mission critical system or any kind of sustainment process, you can't afford to mess with them. But what I am hinting at is not for the production systems where you will involve a fresh DBA who has just walked in, but during the development and enhancement processes. I will be very surprised that any organization would ask a DBA to just come in and take control of the Production or mission critical systems, there will of course be a transition phase.
However, my observations in general have been following w.r.t many old, seasoned and experienced DBAs:
1. Many of them ridicule the OCP process and in the process they hardly get a chance to even know about the newest features. Many of them have a syndrome of "I know everything..!" There are many new concepts evolving and they usually are missing something. Again not applicable for all old, experienced DBAs, so do not get offended if you are an old timer AND take pains to keep on updating yourself.
2. Sometimes they rely on their old concepts or experience more than referring to any new book or reference manuals. There are some old DBAs who have not accepted CBO fully and still insist for RBO and complex hints in the queries. There are some who still believe that Ratio based tuning is the best way to tune a database.
3. Many of the old DBAs could not cope up successfully with the newer concepts of Oracle, particularly Object Oriented (LOBs, Data Types etc.) and Java enhancements. Those who took the courses or went for OCP, certainly have better grip over these new features.

Well, I am not trying to create a division between old and fresh DBAs, the intent of my pointing out these deficiencies of some of the old time DBAs was to prove the point that if old time DBAs have an edge over the fresh DBAs by virtue of experience then New DBAs do have a distinct advantage with their latest knowledge over them. What is new today will become old tomorrow and the process will continue as has been in the past...!

[Edited by freemind on 10-18-2002 at 10:17 AM]

1. I DO know everything!
2. I use CBO but still have to rely on hints because I know my data better than Oracle does. Does that make me old fashion?
3. Many of the paper OCPs in these forums have no clue about Temporay Segments and tkprof let alone OO and Java. So OCP = I know every new feature?
10-21-2002, 07:00 PM
PraKul

Thank you guys!.

It is really nice of you.

The suggestions by Sanjay Zha are very useful.
Thanks Sanjay.

PraKul.