Oracle Education is not Accredited

Oracle University, OCP, Oracle Masters are not accredited. OCP does not count as a post-secondary certificate. I believe this is the biggest drawback of the OCP program.

A plumber who does OCP and OCM is still a plumber, educationwise. His oracle education does not count towards a degree, diploma or a post-secondary certificate.

Potential OCP candidates should know this. The funniest thing is that if you take an oracle course in a community college that has the same curriculum as, for example, OCP exam 1z0-001 you will get credits that count towards a diploma.

Personally that doesn't bother me. The less people who are certified the better it is for me I reckon. Additionally, is there any certification that is accredited?

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Originally posted by kris109
Oracle University, OCP, Oracle Masters are not accredited. OCP does not count as a post-secondary certificate. I believe this is the biggest drawback of the OCP program.

A plumber who does OCP and OCM is still a plumber, educationwise. His oracle education does not count towards a degree, diploma or a post-secondary certificate.

Potential OCP candidates should know this. The funniest thing is that if you take an oracle course in a community college that has the same curriculum as, for example, OCP exam 1z0-001 you will get credits that count towards a diploma.

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Although you seem to have the firm opinion on the difference between academic and non-accredited degrees, you still place your Ph.D. and OCP 8i DBA next to each other below your name :-)

I would bet that you have been asked where you completed your Ph.D, but never been asked who the body was that gave the institution accredidation.

Comparing Oracle training and formal education is comparing apples and oranges. (Sorry for the idiom).

If you wan't another degree do one. I think getting credits towards one by doing a variety of potentially unrelated certifications misses the point entirely.

I've found OCP more useful to me than my degree and PhD put together. Does that mean it's better? No. Does it mean it's more useful? For me yes! Do my thoughts on the matter count for sh*t? No :)

By the way, I place my OCP and training courses above my degrees on my resume. To me they are more relevant to an employer.

[Edited by TimHall on 02-19-2002 at 04:17 AM]

A friend of mine applied for a job that requires at least 2-year post secondary education in computers + 3 years experience. He showed his OCP and said he had 10 years in Oracle. He does not have a formal degree. He was rejected.

Now he is doing a 2-year diploma as a database specialist in a community college and what is the curriculum you say - for 22 credits it is the same as for OCP APP and DBA.

The point is that Oracle Education is NOT formal education. For those people who have a choice of blowing $10000 on ILT and another $1000 on OCP OR get an career diploma, OCP is a LOSER.

Where are you and your friend based?

Was the job in government or private enterprise?

[Edited by dknight on 02-19-2002 at 09:26 AM]

Haven't we had this conversation in a different flavor already. University vs Non-University, as I said this argument will not go away. I think everyone makes a great point here and I am not knocking education but let's face it, a lot of it is bull****. I am considering going back to school because a lot of people have the mindset that you need a piece of paper to get a job, that is an unfortunate reality. I am also looking further down the road in my career and if you want to ascend to the upper levels of management you will need that slip of paper.

Last week Jeff (Marist) posted a problem where he could not find the person that issued a recover database statement, one of his own employees. This is a perfect example of what you can NOT learn in any university, honesty and integrity. I had to go into my managers cube once, look him square in the eye and tell him " I f*ck$d up". As it turns out I won his respect by doing this. That is just one example of what I mean when I say that there are far too many variables to judge any one person on there degree or level of education. I wish more people felt this way but again that is not the reality of the situation. Again, as was stated last week, those personality traits are very hard to determine on an interview and would be more of a word of mouth thing or come via a recommendation.

That is my 2 cents for the morning.

MH



[Edited by Mr.Hanky on 02-19-2002 at 09:38 AM]

I rather hire someone with a college degree, 9i OCP and little EXP than someone without a degree but 10 years of Oracle EXP. Big deal that the guy with the 10 year EXP has used Version 5 or Version 6 or Forms 3. Now, there is Oracle 9i and it has 4 times the stuff contained in Oracle 7. I would prefer someone having the academical analytical knowledge, not someone making the 9 to 5 days. I say all that having seen people with years of Oracle EXP still doing the things with Version 6 methods. I have seen also young educated guys who learn the new stuff within months. But still, an experienced guy might be the better choice :-)

DK,

Minneapolis, Minnesota.

The client is a govt. agency.

The guy I mentioned is slogging his butt in Hennepin Technical College.

[Edited by kris109 on 02-19-2002 at 10:29 AM]

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Originally posted by kris109

The client is a govt. agency.

[Edited by kris109 on 02-19-2002 at 10:29 AM]

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This explains everything.

I wouldn't use government agencies as a model for best practices in hiring policy. There are lots of rules, it is impossible to fire someone, and they do not need to make a profit.

It would be nice if Oracle Univeristy is accredited. Most colleges (chicago state comes to mind) have full curricula oracle programs that lead to academic degrees. I do not know why OCP certificate with the same syllabus should not have some academic value. At least it is something worth thinking about.

Dr Kris has a point here. http://www.dbasupport.com/forums/

Mr.Hanky may only be a X-mas poo, but he has some very good points. So does everyone else.

I would like to mention that I got my Oracle education through a university program entitled something along the lines of: "Certified Oracle DBA Program"

Now, for us DBAs in the biz, this means little. Obviously the COURSE/courses are Oracle certified, but this does not mean that I am certified once I finish the program and get my lovely certificate. Does it IMPLY this? Certainly! Did I go out of my way to point this out to perspective employers? Probably not. If asked, I told them the courses are certified by Oracle, but if they assumed I was certified, then I didn't correct them. Having experience in other related fields like finance and having a B.S. definitely added a lot and probably helped.

What does all this mean? not much!
It only has a small relevance on this current topic. Hey, education is a must. If you have OCP and a degree you can go far. So, get both and live the high-life! It's no secret that most employers ask for a degree and experience (and maybe OCP depending on where you are located).

- Magnus

It is RIDICULOUS accredit a 5 days course

College is different, you dont spend 5 days on a course do you? In Oracle Education you do and many people who go to Oracle Education dont have much idea on Oracle even after the course, tell me how much you can understand from two 400 pages books in 27 hours including practice?

And accredit OCP is RIDICULOUS there are people who can get OCP WITHOUT attending any ILT now you tell me you can accredit people who studies at home

There are MSC course in UK which is based on OCP but hey they dont spend 150 hours to complete DBA curricula, they spend 9 months!

[Edited by pando on 02-20-2002 at 05:01 PM]

I disagree with Dr. Kris for many reasons, but these are the most important.

First, Oracle is private corp, and federal education $ should not be spent to promote a private company's products under the guise of academics. Learning Oracle is a trade. You might have noticed that Apple raised hell when MSFT proposed that they would pay money to educational institutions as part of the antitrust settlement. Education is one of the few markets where Apple does well.

Learning relational theory is different than learning Oracle specific features.

Second, OCP is consistent in that Oracle is the central body that sets the standards for OCP worldwide. As you know, there is a huge difference in quality between a C- student with a degree in Sociology from Eastern Oregon State college and a straight A student in Sociology from Harvard.

No matter the route for preparation, an OCP means that the candidate has passed the exams successfully.

Rant over.

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Originally posted by pando
It is RIDICULOUS accredit a 5 days course

College is different, you dont spend 5 days on a course do you? In Oracle Education you do and many people who go to Oracle Education dont have much idea on Oracle even after the course, tell me how much you can understand from two 400 pages books in 27 hours including practice?

And accredit OCP is RIDICULOUS there are people who can get OCP WITHOUT attending any ILT now you tell me you can accredit people who studies at home

There are MSC course in UK which is based on OCP but hey they dont spend 150 hours to complete DBA curricula, they spend 9 months!

[Edited by pando on 02-20-2002 at 05:01 PM]

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Pando;
Your point is well taken but your example is a little weak. Is time the only measure of education. If that is the case then why are their 10 year olds going to college?
Are you saying that if I can walk into a university and pass their exams without taking the class then I am not entitled to the rewards, what is this prison?

Sure an Oracle class may be 5 days but if you can absorb all of that info in 5 days you are wasting your time as a DBA and should probably be designing rockets somewhere. Personally for most people I know it takes a lot longer to fully study and comprehend all of that info.

I'm not saying it should or should not be accredited I just don't feel that time is a good yardstick for capabilities.

MH

so you think it´s comprehensive accredit a 5 day/27 hours course?

dont think so

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Originally posted by pando
so you think it´s comprehensive accredit a 5 day/27 hours course?

dont think so

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Did you read my last paragraph, don't think so.

MH

In the UK we have an organisation called the Open University (OU funily enough) which is based around home study. You do all assignments at home and take exams at official testing centers. Their degrees are quite well regarded as most people do them while working, requiring a level of dedication and commitment most regular students don't have.

What is the difference between this and studying for your OCP from home? I didn't go on any ILTs to pass any of my OCPs. Does this mean I'm not as good as someone who did?

Surely any acreditation should be based on passing exams, not attending a course. That way it doesn't matter how or where you study, so long as you pass!

I knew someone would come with OU stuff, I dont know Open University in UK, in Spain they have this kind of Universities and mind you even you dont need to attend the lectures (there arent any anyway) you do get weekly tutorials and practicals

That's the same as the UK one. I know someone who did a computer science degree with them and he seemed to know his stuff.

I suppose the worst thing about them in most peoples eyes is they don't have as much snob value. There are some employers in the UK that require degrees from certain top-tier universities.

Old school tie etc.

Can we completely change the direction of this thread and start quoting Monty Python now?
Please

MH

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Originally posted by pando
so you think it´s comprehensive accredit a 5 day/27 hours course?

dont think so

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Pando,
I didn't say it was a 5-day course. It was actually 9 months for the certification (Or, 500 hours). My only point was that oracle certified the classes, not how much time it took me ...

- Magnus

i didnt mean you neither :o

i just say if you take a college and compare it with oracle education then you should see that accredited in college makes more sense

{{Most colleges (chicago state comes to mind) have full curricula oracle programs that lead to academic degrees. I do not know why OCP certificate with the same syllabus should not have some academic value. }}

So what about those who have completed the OCP and want to apply for credit in a college ? Does it work backwards ? There are colleges that have five courses (or 5 X 3 = 15 credits) for the OCP program. That should be an easy way to snatch up credits if one is intending to complete college. Perhaps the same for the java certification. I know the java cert would cover for the intro to computer sci and intro to programming (2 X 3 = 6 credits) in college. But question is are there colleges that allow this substitution.

I just know of one case where the guy was a CNE, and had to take an upper level networking course in CS. But he mentioned his CNE to the professor and the professor allowed him to take a final and just get credit for the course without having to take the course.

I understand very well Pando's point. I have been to (almost) all Oracle ILT courses and by now I know what to do in order to gain most from those 4-5 days. But I remember very well my first courses Forms I, Forms II, where I learned actually very little. The so called Instructor only read the slides and we made the exercises, well some of them. Most people use the exercise time for a coffee break, etc. Boy, you get tired of sitting and listening for days. 5 days is often too much...

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Originally posted by pando
i didnt mean you neither :o

i just say if you take a college and compare it with oracle education then you should see that accredited in college makes more sense

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ah! Okay.
Your original post on this matter was right after mine so I thought your were possibly referring to my post.

thanks for the clarification.

- Magnus