Ever after I am certified, I can no longer find a job

I was a scientist(Phd level). In my work I used some oracle database. One day in 1998, I find a job as a oracle dba(career change) and worked for about three years, like a jr or mid level dba. From last april, the firm I worked with is closed down.
For a better job, I think I should get certified before I get back into the job market. It is proved foolish and wrong. Ever after I am certified dba 8i, I can no longer find any work. A friend of mine said to me most the sr. dbas are not certified, they hates people certified and suggest I don't put certification on my cv. It is weired and pathetic, right? But is it true? Please help me!!!

Hello Learner, What is your PhD in ? And why did you not pursue research, professorship or work in the line of your PhD ? If you are based in USA, there are lots of universities looking for professors all the time.

Why did you choose to shift to DBA work ? Also, which country/city are you based in ? It's news to me that employers are scorning the OCP DBA label. I know employers mock lesser known certifications...

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Learner
A friend of mine said to me most the sr. dbas are not certified, they hates people certified and suggest I don't put certification on my cv. It is weired and pathetic, right? But is it true? Please help me!!!

---

:) I think it's jealousy.. some of them declared Sr. DBA simply because they got in the industry earlier than us not necessarily that they know any better. Well, be optimistic about the future, I think the economy is slowly turning around so hang in there tight. Good luck !!

Quote:

---

A friend of mine said to me most the sr. dbas are not certified, they hates people certified and suggest I don't put certification on my cv.

---

I am a senior DBA and I am certified. I was in an OPS seminar recently where there were senior DBAs from several Scandinavian countries, most were certified. I have met non-certified senior DBAs, they are mostly people who got into the business when there was no certification, they simply know how to do the daily tasks, but they don't know all possibilities and methods Oracle offers. If they want to become certified, they will have to learn all the stuff. They might not want to do that because they might not need it in and you see, there is always the chance that they fail the exam. Imagine such a senior DBA coming to work after the exam, all the guys asking: Well, how did it go?, and he say: Well, I did fail. How will that reflect on his reputation? An Oracle employee from a central European country told me once that this fear of not passing the exam is the reason why some Oracle employees do not attend the exams. You know, not everybody passes the OCP exams :-)

I agree with the fear thing. I was nervous when I started the OCP thing. I too thought, if I fail it means I'm a crap DBA. On reflection I probably was anyway :-)

As for OCP being a hindrance, if DBAs interviewing you are not confident about their abilities they may well find the OCP tag a threat. At the same time, if you are not OCP but seem really good at the interview they may also find you a threat. You don't want to work with people like this anyway so put your OCP on your CV and try your hardest. There will be companies out there that will appreciate your effort.

I too switched from science to IT after my PhD. The research thing was slow, boring and payed badly. I was a genetic engineer, a field that the press would have you believe is fast and exciting. It sucked ass!

To those people who asked why you didn't stick with research I say, try it and after it's sapped your will to live come back to IT :-)

Cheers and good luck

Tim,

Is http://www.oracle-base.com your personal site? great site!
I especially like the DBA Scripts area, its really very helpful.

OCP is very usefull when you apply a dba job which will be the only dba position in the group or company. The person who will interview you may know very little about database. Try to find small company who only need one dba. Your PH.D and OCP will help to get these positions

Good Luck.

of course you will be discriminated. I have faced the same situation several times at an interview. The interviewer are well awared that you are certified he like to attacked you with dummy questions(not a professional one)..As an experience and certified oracle I personally feel unfair for myself and all of you as the whole. Most of older DBA are afraid of changing and new technology. They are way behind . Maybe aging factor is the cause!.yep my old boss is a good example.I think That is the reason you the certified is discriminated.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by D Maverick
Tim,

Is http://www.oracle-base.com your personal site? great site!
I especially like the DBA Scripts area, its really very helpful.

---

Yes it's my site. Thanks for the complement.

I started it to store all my scripts so I didn't need to carry them round between jobs. I'm freelance so I change jobs regularly and it can become a bit of a pain to cart loads of stuff around. Once it got above a certain size it seemed sensible to make it look a bit more professional. It's another thing to go on the CV :)

I think all DBAs should write or gather useful scripts and articles so they can constantly refer back to them. What better way to structure them than on a website. When you change jobs regularly it's even more important as you may not use some of your skills for several weeks/months. It's far easier to get back into the swing of things if you've written yourself some how-to type articles.

Cheers

I think http://www.oracle-base.com is the best 9i site on the Internet, bar none.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by julian
I think http://www.oracle-base.com is the best 9i site on the Internet, bar none.

---

Now my heads starting to swell :)

Quote:

---

Originally posted by jonathan
of course you will be discriminated. I have faced the same situation several times at an interview. The interviewer are well awared that you are certified he like to attacked you with dummy questions(not a professional one)

---

Just got home from an interview with one of the big six consulting firm, i kinda feel the same way you do, its not that they attacked me with dummy question, but rather they really come prepared and loaded with questions to test and challenged my Oracle knowledge. I kinda feel discriminated in a way, but then again, i might just be paranoid.

Well i really hope they'll call me within a day or two for another interview.

That surprises me. I feel the opposite really. I feel peoples attitude to me is more, "You've got the certification so we won't bother with the technical stuff!". I've got alot of experience so perhaps the combination of the two makes them think I must be OK and makes my life easier where interviews are concerned??

To add something to the subject: I have noticed that Oracle people who have vaguely heard about OCP or never heard are most negative towards it.

Last year, was it an Oracle employee, told me: "I think that OCP has no value, because anybody can memorize that stuff for one day and forget it the next". I just smiled, did not respond...

I have more than 1 1/2 years Oracle DBA experience, but if your an OCP they expect you to know everything, w/c is ofcourse not the case. there is a definte bias during interviews compared to non OCPs with same yrs of experience.

Sir

I know only one thing that where there is a will there is a way and dark clouds have silver linings.

Keep your spirits up.
And you can get what you want because Sky is the limit.

All the best

Quote:

---

Originally posted by D Maverick
I have more than 1 1/2 years Oracle DBA experience, but if your an OCP they expect you to know everything, w/c is ofcourse not the case. there is a definte bias during interviews compared to non OCPs with same yrs of experience.

---

I do know everything! I'm just not prepared to share all of it with the world :)

jonathan

"of course you will be discriminated. I have faced the same situation several times at an interview. The interviewer are well awared that you are certified he like to attacked you with dummy questions(not a professional one)."

Could you give some examples of dummy questions you have been asked? I ask the same questions whether a candidate is OCP or not.

From my experience in the recruitment industry you will be experiencing some diffuclty in getting through interviews due to the amount of competition from all the other individuals looking for work. This is why current employers are being so strigent in their interviewing process (because they can)

All I can say is that I saw a similar siutation when the Micrsoft Certification and Lotus Notes certification schemes were implemented soon all employers asked for certified people only. As the market picks up (and all my old colleagues in recruitment land are very busy) you will find the the OCP will become a differentiator, favouring those candidates with certification and experience.

The OCP won't get you the job but it will get you those interviews in the future especially when clients direct agencies to only look for OCP qualified people.

steve
http://www.theoraclejobsite.com

Hello!

I used visit this site almost everyday. Now try to visit at least once a week.

I find this topic very interesting. Let me share my side. Before that let me thank Tim Hall. His site helps me a lot when I do not carry my CD case. Also I visit his site for other references. So, keep up good work.

Now my side: I am working as an oracle dba little over 7 years, used to be an experienced Engineer. Gave up because it is big name but no money. When I saw guy came from overseas with no or little college education and making over 70K, I thought I am in wrong business. So, I went to Oracle web and downloaded oracle7 and started my own. Later, Enroll in one of the tech school for 2 months weekend class. After I completed the school I was took my first test. Fist test was SQL for Oracle7/8, did not pass, waited 30 days and took it again this time passed it, there on everything gone my way, passed all testes and land a Job with company via friend I meet in my Oracle class. The Director interviewed me was an older gentlemen with long programming background. He like what I presented and told him why I am changing my profession. I told him I will be retire before I can make my entry level Oracle dba salary. I get in with 55K as starting.

In the mean time lots have change in our Oracle world! Changed job once and got laid off last January, but landed contract again within 2 months, with good pay. In this two month I got a several interview, and one with Oracle. I will give brief about Oracle only because they should know better about OCP. I got the interview via an agency.

When I went to the brand new Oracle data center, I saw what was expected, everything State of the art, but when I saw the main person will interview me I got very disappointed with his personal hygiene. I never saw such a person. But any way, he took me to the conference room with other two people and one over the bridge from the main office.

Fist question was, Ohne! You are OCP, OK tell me this, tell this, you should know all these because you are an OCP. At that point I decide I will not going work for these people and start asking my question. First question I asked how long you all in this country (USA). Have you ever try to take any of the OCP test? After few of my questions, person (Manager) from California took over and he try to conclude the interview in civilize way. My final comment was oracle should require all dba to be Certified and Main office guy laugh.

Beside that I receive very well with my OCP credential. Also now a day my resume gets standout because I think for my 3-OCP and 7 years of experience. So do not let down, keep up, keep use your OCP and you will get notice.

By the way I had to take several other test like proveIT, and other test for all this agencies. They think they own you and now a day you do not have any choice. I think these agencies are parasites, making living on us.

Thanks,
OraMan

I good DBA nowadays has some kind of OCP status. My definition of good DBA might defer from someone's else definition :-)

I'm not sure about the OCP credential bit. I've see posts on this very forum where folks say the actual exam question papers are available for a price. I've seen people ask for sample "dumps" here. Then I've seen the most inane questions about how to configure a listener come from OCPs. Given all this, it is not surprising that an OCP credential by itself doesn't mean much these days.

Well, I'm an OCP(7.3,8,8i) myself. But I used to take the tests to force myself to learn new features right away. It didn't make job hunting any easier. Not that I expected it to either.

To me - concepts, analytical and communication skills are primary. If a person can draw and explain the architecture of an Oracle database on a white board without having to think twice, s/he is 50% through. Sounds simple enough - but ask a "senior" DBA this and 8 times out of 10 they will goof. Who cares if a person can't answer nitty gritty commands/syntax in RAC or Data guard. It doesn't take a decent DBA long to figure the stuff out.

Amen to that!

Who dug up this thread?

There aren't OCP's who know everything. There aren't PEOPLE who know everything.

Frankly, sometimes I need to do some tasks that are covered by OCP and still need to check documentation. It's hard to remember exactly the steps when it's not a routine task, but at least the OCP program provided me the knowledge to know the WAY to follow. In-depth information can always be gathered on Metalink and official documentation.

About getting OCP for a good job, well... it's better than nothing, but a certification alone won't bring many benefits. Experience is still the difference.

Personally, I don't trust OCP, but I still go for it. Why, because it does give me some benefit. Go for OCP is one way for me to fresh my knowledge and learning something new. With OCP, I got more opportunity than other candidates who are not OCP when look for job. Current I am working for one of the TOP 2 US banks, I still remember few years ago, I got the interview opportunity partly because of my OCP status. In their recruit AD, it said must be OCP. Well, we all know working experience is most important, with OCP definitely will make things better. After all, OCP won't do you any harm.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by xiaomao
Well, we all know working experience is most important, with OCP definitely will make things better.

---

No, *knowledge* is most important.

No. Oxygen is the most important thing. Without it you will die within 5 minutes...

Although with knowledge you might know where to find Oxygen...

OK Julian, you're correct ;)

With some efforts I passed OCP's, MCSD in last two years. My quest was more for mastering these books. But I have seen no one has really noticed that on my resume though I have a big logo of OCP on my resume. Almost all asked me on my job experience. Also, there is a trend that now employers asking more and more technical degree. If I do not have a degree I will try to get that part-time. That will endure more than these certifications. Besides, now one has option to learn Oracle, java, etc while pursuing these degrees, in older days college in CS courses will not teach these courses they will strictly teach computer science courses like compiler, db design, pascal(a good language to learn).