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Good answers by every one - so far so good.
If u see there are always positive/negative aspects about each and every technology , but look at the positive side,
Be positive , learn/ explore depth of the subject again, and u will see how much more there is yet to try and thats how life goes on.
GURUDAS SHENOY
Zurich, SWITZERLAND :)
Gayathri,
What is your real intension?.In my last interview,I was asked the same.I said keep that database available all time to you with no down time.That got me job.I am not telling I am very good but fact is DBA job is keep and maintain the database up and running with no down time.How you do that is your problem but should do it.
Are you a sole DBA on site.
Thanks.
Thanigaivasan.
Ok Gayatri, So with your very first explosive question you become a Member of the year of dbasupport.com and a award winner :) So if you guys wants your thread goes to 10 pages and 2000 Views!!! all you have to do is throw an agressive , offensive question and few of us reply with rash comments then the religous war will be start :)) Oh God I didn't know we can have so many lable beside DBA label we have like Brain Surgoen, Insurance of Business, Firefighter, Slakers!!!, Gets Pay and do Nothing,... and so many prediction for our future like Misrable boring career, No future when Oracle 12i comes out and not need any DBA and ...
So were we are going from here now, let's get some conclusion that we need to quit today or ask for more raise or stop backstabber programmers Speak out brave DBAs, Speak out and let's the truth shines and we go to right path. My another 2 Cents!
Great people talk about ideas.
Average people talk about things.
Ordinary people talk about other people.
[Edited by tamilselvan on 04-05-2002 at 01:47 PM]
Okay, I have read through the 10 pages of replies, read the examples, and now have to put in my two coppers worth. The fact that I will probably rehash points made by earliers is beside the point!
I have been a Oracle DBA for just shy of 2 years now. was hired as my deparments first DBA. They were bringing a application/system online built around an oracle DBA.
Since I walked in the door, I have not stopped. So, based on that, let me see if I can answer your questions
The "environment" you identified and placed out as the basis of your question is unrealistic. If those conditions existed, you would not need a DBA. Heck, you would not need anything. The system is running itself. In your environment, nothing can ever grow or change, because those actions will require a DBA intervention. I have NEVER been around and environment like the one you used as a basis for your question. So, lets focus on a more real world environment.
In "real-world" virtually none of the above exists. I NEVER have enough disk space, screaming hardware, etc. Why, because BUDGET does not allow for it. The rate of Hardware and software advancement ensures that the lifecyle is short and getting shorter. We are getting ready to migrate to our 3rd server suite. Why, because users want faster, better, more.
As long as users exits within your organization, a DBA will have a job. Becuase, users are sitting around going "what if..."
98% f the scripts I write are to do things that users want done that were not envisioned when the application was written. Once a user gets a taste of what the system/database can provide....they want more. THAT keeps you employed.
I have YET to be able to develop comprehensive backup and recovery scripts, full documentation of instance creation, automation of funtions, etc. Why, because my priorities are changed for me daily.
After a year of hard work, debugging, etc, I finally have the sytem tuned to the point that I dont' get those pages in teh middle of the night. We have slowly squeezed the bugs out. So, what do I do now? Keep on tunning, tweaking , coding. New versions of the application come out, mangment wants to add new capabilities, new hardware, users wanting more, etc.
I set down with my boss just 2 weeks ago for a review of my work, and where the system was going. She and I agree that we see 3-5 more years of work to get it to wher we want it. THEN, it will be time to do it all over again.
You hire, retain, and pay a DBA for the same reason you hire, retain, and pay a SYSADMIN, NETADMIN, etc. Technology is not perfect, it breaks, and it has a short lifecycle. as said earlier. A DBA is there to make sure that database stays up, and when, not if, it goes down, that it is back up as fast as possible.
Lets assume you think you don't need a DBA. When your system breaks, what do you do? Hire a consultant. That takes time to contract and get the person in. Then, they have to become familiar with your system to the point that they can now do repair work. More time. Time is money. How much do you think your company loses's in business per hour in downtime. Lets say your are down for 24 hours. At a loss of just $10,000 an hour ( one of the cheaper business's), you probaly just spent a quarter to a third of a DBA's salary.
How does the DBA earn his money. He keeps the database up. He constantly monitors and tweaks the system, trying to improve response time. He develops tools, scripts, etc to provide for users needs at a MUCH cheaper rate than a contractor or vendor would charge. My salary is $30 an hour. A vendor/consultant will start at $250 per hour. You do the math.
My job is anything but boring. I don't work in the environment you outlined, nor do I know ANYONE in the metropolis I work in that does. Its unrealistic, thus making your question unrealistic to answer. Don't know what you were fishing for, but hope you caught it!
=============================================================
Originally posted by Gayatri
Got ur opinion and ur views on role of a dba .
but wonder how often database gets crashed ?
not every day right ? also due to security reasons . password authentication , nobody will delete the database files, users. so probability of crash happening is low. isn’t it ?
still 8 hours - every day - work accountability is not complete and Not known fully
-- Gayatri
===============================
A decade ago I was told the following story when I was working in a manufacturing company. This story is often heard in many Indian companies.
A Big engineering manufacturing company purchased a machine from USA that costs about $20 M. It was shipped to Bombay and was installed and commissioned by the technicians who flew from USA. The machine was working fine and produced very good quality product. The company reaped a good profit. Absolutely no problem was reported. Every body in the company had full faith on the machine and they thought it would never fail or produce any problem. Few months have gone. One day the machine stopped working.
The maintenance department tried to rectify the problem. They could not. And finally, management called the supplier and informed them the problem. The supplier told the customer that the customer would pay the air tickets for the engineer, the service charge for rectifying the machine, hotel charge, etc….
The customer agreed.
The “super” engineer flew from USA to India, and inspected the machine for just 5 minutes. Then he took a hammer and banged the machine at one place.
That’s all.
The machine started working perfectly.
The “super” engineer charged the customer for $ 50,000. The customer was shocked after seeing the bill. The CEO of the manufacturing company asked the engineer why his charge was so high. The “super” engineer replied, “I know where to touch the machine whenever it fails. That is why my charge is high”. Finally the customer paid $50,000 to “super” engineer.
Morale of the story:
Machine = Oracle Database
Super Engineer = DBA
Tamil selvan That was really good incident and a perfect example . :)
--GURUDAS SHENOY
Zurich Switzerland
Alternate moral of the story:
The customer always gets the short end of the stick on fixed cost projects.
Another alternate moral of the story:
sometimes it only takes a hammer to fix a database...
or or or......
any DBA can become a "super" engineer as long as you know where to "touch" the machine.
DBA role is a key role, and they are only remembered when something goes wrong in the database, something happens in the database, performance slow, so he is called upon to fix it. so he will be always there. and the importance of dba is known when he fixes a problem at a minimum time .
dba should be there , infact he can be good mentor for the developers.
-- GURUDAS SHENOY
Zurich , Switzerland
Hi Guys,
Hmmm this is really wonderful see each one of them justifying their answers. Truly I agree to what each one of them has said in this thread. DBA synonymous to doctors, insurance providers and what not.
hi guys and oracle gurus !!!
I agree what u say , but there lies one question which is hidden
One point of time , database is going to be stable, that has been said by many of experts in this thread
So when the dba who is paid on hourly basis , or dba who are supposed to fill in activity sheet for task/ job done/ activities done done during the day or week what tasks he will be filling in the details , once the database is stable. ? --- Just monitoring for 8 hours !!!
-- Gayatri
really? I havent seen a single DBA who monitors databases only. Have you seen any or you know any?
Yes, thats what you should put down. http://www.plauder-smilies.de/madgo.gifQuote:
Originally posted by Gayatri
So when the dba who is paid on hourly basis , or dba who are supposed to fill in activity sheet for task/ job done/ activities done done during the day or week what tasks he will be filling in the details , once the database is stable. ? --- Just monitoring for 8 hours !!!
yes , Fact is fact , one must write monitoring as a activity in that case
-- GURUDAS SHENOY
Zurich , Switzerland. :)
As several of the other contributors pointed out, few full time dba's have only one database.
Depending on your definition of database (Microsoft's vs Oracle) I support either 61 or 189. Not counting Access.
For every database that has reached some sort of stability, there are new ones going in, old ones being decommissioned (project manager: i didn't know we used those tables, can you put them back until our new software can do something aobut it?) upgrades and power failures.
Variation on an earlier statement. No database survives contact with it's users.
User change. User requirements change. Businesses change. Releases change. Platforms change.
In reality, the stability you seek (or is it nirvana) is achieved at the end of the last tuning/recovery/maintenance session. Usually at 3 am. But it only lasts until the users get in to work about 8 am. If one is really lucky, it is 3am Saturday to 8 am Monday, but I'll settle.
I have just been reading this thread but now I think I will contribute
I would like a show of hands from everyone who has a "stable" database. I have never seen one and I want to shake the hand of the DBA who has one.
As a DBA, if you can keep users happy, have the database tuned perfectly, convince the company upgrades are no longer needed and new systems do not need to be created then you deserve to monitor for 8 hours a day because even god got to rest on the 7th day.
A DBA's job is a dynamic one, I will be the first to admit someday's you may have to find ways to fill your day such as reading up new features and honing skills you haven't used in a while or monitoring but the majority of your time is spent working on current or upcoming projects.
We have over 200 Oracle instances here and most are "stable" but I didn't spend my day monitoring. I installed Oracle on a Sun box to test a new version of Solaris for an upcoming upgrade, installed Oracle client on another to test a new version of Cognos reporting tools. There is always something to do in a dynamic environment. If you have a server room of stable system's I would say its time to get out of the company because they have limited user's, and no vision for the future. Things are always changing that effects a DBA's job, not only database but OS, hardware and network.
At least my job as DBA is getting more dynamic, I dont only have to take care of databases now, I have to sort of administer, configure iAS now what a nightmare!
And sometimes, people think you know everything about Oracle (both development, sql, pl/sql and administration) if they heard you are a DBA sigh...
Gayatri after 100+ replies, you return back to your first question!!! First of all ,we are living in real world not in a dream world that you think nothing will happens and just 8 hours monitoring. There is no DBA I know that not do to Developers coaching, I recieve at least 10 call/emails each day from developers. Second why you so obsess about timesheet and worksheet, Yes I proudly put 8 hours monitoring and developers coaching and researching new features in my timesheet , nothing else. Nothing wrong with that, hope you understand finally!!!!!!
And I would say, it's time to take a cup of coffee and surf over the Internet for a while, answer some messages in the Oracle forums for instance :-)Quote:
If you have a server room of stable system's I would say its time to get out of the company because they have limited user's, and no vision for the future.
Gayatri: Seems like you are either "jealous" of a DBA's pay OR you are "Failing to think for sometime patiently". There cannot be a third principle.
Now I will say only one statement:
A DBA IS NOT PAID FOR QUANTIFICATION OF TIME HE SPENDS.
HE IS ONLY PAID FOR THE QUANTIFICATION OF -
1)THE COMPLEXITY OF EMERGENCIES THAT MAY ARISE
2)TROUBLE SHOOTING (ANYTHING BE IT...WHICH CANNOT BE HANDLED BY PROFESSIONALS LIKE U AND ME)
3)MAINTENANCE
EVEN IF THE DBA WORKS FOR ONLY 8 HRS ALL THROUGH THE YEAR IN TERMS OF TIME -- IF THE COMPANY IS BENEFITED WORTH IN TERMS OF COST -- IT IS STILL A GOOD AND PERFECTLY REASONABLE DEAL.
GOD BLESS U.
And there is something else to the work of most DBAs, working on Sundays, weekends (I bet not many developers work on weekends), not to mention the early mornings (I had to get out of bed at 4AM this morning to come to work to boots servers)....
I Can't understand the resilience of not being able to understand that every scenario is different.Quote:
Originally posted by Gayatri
So when the dba who is paid on hourly basis , or dba who are supposed to fill in activity sheet for task/ job done/ activities done done during the day or week what tasks he will be filling in the details , once the database is stable. ? --- Just monitoring for 8 hours !!!
-- Gayatri
I have a simple question for you, gayatri girl...
1. What do you want to conclude from your question?
Apparently you're agreeing nd again disagreeing.
2. Or do you want to plagiarize this whole thread and write an article on the role of a dba.
3. Or maybe submit a report of to the ceo to put some dba's career out of their misery.
I think it's time to close this thread.
Jeff, can you do the honour?
I write this in the hope that it would be the last post to this "war" begun by well-meaning but naive and misinformed GAYATRI. Let's assume the following.
-Company ABC's database is "stable" as per Gayatri.
-Company ABC is a business with client base.
-Company ABC has competition.
-Company ABC like any other seeks to maintain regard on Wall Street
-Company ABC fires DBA b/c he only "monitors".
One sunny morning database goes "belly-up". Managers call CEO, CEO curses "i want it up right now". Manager call recruiters. Recruiters senses tension, raises fees. Manager agrees to put his mother up for bid. Partners call CEO. CEO "assures" things are "under control". Partners doubt CEO.
GAYATRI please answer the following
(Remember no database no business)
-How long would it take to find a DBA?
-Who would interview him/her?
-who would make the decision to hire? When?
-how long would it him/her to get a handle on the system and start diagnosing/troubleshooting the problem seeing he has no ****ing clue baout the application?
-How long would it take clients to switch to competitors?
-How long would Wall Street wait?
-Does this look like the way to run a business?
Finally when the fire is out someone would have to dust off their resumes.
GAYATRI if you are in a decision making position perhaps you would have to think twice about that mortgage before you fire you DBA.
Very nice, Tony.
I don't know why your guys keep on arguing about companies should keep us high paid DBA? Isn't that companies' decision to hire us? Believe me, before hiring us, those decision makers already know the job nature of dba. Otherwise, they won't pay such money to us. I never doubt that we worth the money. I only complain when I got bored. I like being busy; I enjoy solving problems. But the databases here are maintained so well. I can't break them. My boss is so afraid of me asking for more work to do.
Don't afraid of losing your job because some of people complain. Believe me, you worth your money!
1 hr downtime for a large ecommerce site cost: $10 million
1 hr downtime for a large bank cost: $100 million
1 DBA costs: $100,000/yr.
you'll prolly hire more DBAs..but I think you getthe picture. get a calculator and get a clue. cheers :-)
I am highly doubt that Gayatri girl convinc yet! Religous War will be continue and she enjoys that hit the biggest reply record for her thread!! Gayatri , Do you like we all ask our HR Depatment to reduce our salary by %50 then deposit it to your account, I guess you will be convince and very happy at that time!
This makes no sense in REALITY. Even IF the PRODUCTION DB is running smoothly, you still have plenty to do. Aren't your developers working on the next development cycle and application version??? What are you paying them for then if they are not developing? If they are working then they need an environment to work in ... Who provides the DBs for them to do this?Quote:
Originally posted by Gayatri
One point of time , database is going to be stable, that has been said by many of experts in this thread
So when the dba who is paid on hourly basis , or dba who are supposed to fill in activity sheet for task/ job done/ activities done done during the day or week what tasks he will be filling in the details , once the database is stable. ? --- Just monitoring for 8 hours !!!
-- Gayatri
What is your QA department doing? Don't they have to test the application? Where are the databases for them to do this? Our QA department continually needs new (fresh) data loaded onto their DBs for them to test accurately, etc. (or whatever they do. I just do whatever they want me to, heh :) )
I work in a relatively small company (but fairly large DBs) yet QA needs 4-5 DBs and Development needs 4-5 DBs. I need 1-2 DBs just to test the code I am writing.
It is kinda frustrating to see you talk as if NOTHING is going on in the company WHATSOEVER ...
- Magnus
I am gonna post again.Quote:
Originally posted by dbafreak
A DBA IS NOT PAID FOR QUANTIFICATION OF TIME HE SPENDS.
HE IS ONLY PAID FOR THE QUANTIFICATION OF -
1)THE COMPLEXITY OF EMERGENCIES THAT MAY ARISE
2)TROUBLE SHOOTING (ANYTHING BE IT...WHICH CANNOT BE HANDLED BY PROFESSIONALS LIKE U AND ME)
3)MAINTENANCE
I really like what 'Tha Freak' had to say in the above.
When my manager left our company in my first DBA position (very Jr. but I was the only DBA) I sat with him and asked him before he left about my performance and how he thought I was doing.
His response: "Without you we would be up ****-creek by now!"
This was kind of a surprise for me ...
My observation was that I hadn't done much at all (just my DBA job) and that I maybe wasn't contributing enough. This goes to show that sometimes when a DBA does their job correctly (hey, I screwed up a couple times too!) they are worth a GREAT deal to the company in many ways (these have been cited in previous posts). At that early stage in my career, I could not see what those were, but I have no doubt at all now (especially after reading all these posts :) )
- magnus
Hi Friends,
let us stop this .kind of fighting ........
All our gurus posted nice stuffs about DBA.Let us stop there.
There is a doublet called THIRUKKURAL in one of the oldest
language(TAMIL) in INDIA...
ENNA CHEIDHARE ORRUTHAR OUR NANA
NANNALAM SEIDHU VIDAL....meaning ...If somebody did bad to you....make him/her to realise that mistake by doing good to them.So let us stop scholding...I am really glad we are so
common in our mind...
Do we expect just born baby to walk....nope.Practically not possible.We will wait with patient Right?.Gayathri might be a new born DBA trying to learn things in DBA...Let us train/teach her DBA ...She should not get afraid of us.
Note:Gayathri before posting think the results and post the thread.Here there are so many DBAs awaiting (walking on the rope) in their work for solutions after posting the problems here..Gurus are here to help/share their views and experience with other dbas.Please do not make them to waste their time.You may think let them not read the thread..FYI ...every thread is more important to all of us.Hope you understand.
Thanks a lot.
Thanigaivasan.
Hi
Let me share with you my experience as a DBA...
The last company I was working with had an Oracle test and Production DB for Oracle Apps 11. I was reporting to the AGM Finance. Things were settling down after I moved in and changed the configuration of the prod. db to archivelog... which the implementation team did not do.
Furthermore, I had to tune the SGA and provide good db respone to users of the application. Ofcouse, had to apply many patches... on the apps db.
Well, then one day, all of a sudden, the top management wondered why they needed a fulltime DBA. So, I quit. After 2 months of trying to manage the scene with sys. admin. personal they called me up and asked me to help out. They offered me a very low salary compared to what they had given me previously, saying .. bad economy??
I refused, then they came back again with a one thousand rupees less offer compared to the salary they gave me initially. But by then I had landed a job...
It was a bitter experience for me to see how my input, work was under estimated by the top management... ofcouse, they realized it only lately. I have seen this attitude SOME PEOPLE THINK ONLY THEIR CONTRIBUTION IS GREAT . . . and belittle others.
I think he/she has all the information he/she needs about the DBa role.
Stop this please
Angel
Unpleasant strory. I know that many companies do not want to have an Oracle DBA, they think it is needless. They just call some consultant to analyze the tables once a month and don't care how badly tuned the DB is. They often don't care.Quote:
It was a bitter experience for me to see how my input, work was under estimated by the top management... ofcouse, they realized it only lately. I have seen this attitude SOME PEOPLE THINK ONLY THEIR CONTRIBUTION IS GREAT . . . and belittle others.
the top managers don't know a flying f**k of what's going on in the back ground. Power lunches/bull s**t seminars/even IT/ecommerce seminars when they don't know the how to perform simple operations on a desktop /they're gasbags but when s**t happens they get the boot as well.....Quote:
Originally posted by ggnanaraj
It was a bitter experience for me to see how my input, work was under estimated by the top management...
Tarry
[Edited by marist89 on 04-11-2002 at 09:37 AM]
it varies again from Organisation to oranasation, person to person, manager to manager .......
not each and every person/org is same. it depends on the how important the system is , for them and again how important the database is.
where the the DBA exists that means the organisation is well-known with the DBA activities, may be its monitoring, scripting, designing the database and so on. and where DBA is not there the data may be not important for them and may be its important they don't care how poorly or how well it performs.
DBA varies from places to places. some might do a work from creating, designing to monitoring. some might be involved in just ( thats what some people thinks ) monitoring, some might be involved in writing some big scripts.
SO don't u think that we should stop this thread now. i think Gayatri had already got her answer a long back.
Better moderators write a article on the ROLE OF DBA and display it on the FEATURES.
Well said. In fact they are gasbags filled with airated f**king s**t that stinks miles away:-):-):-)Quote:
Originally posted by Tarry
the top managers don't know a flying f**k of what's going on in the back ground. Power lunches/bull s**t seminars/even IT/ecommerce seminars when they don't know the how to perform simple operations on a desktop /they're gasbags but when s**t happens they get the boot as well.....Quote:
Originally posted by ggnanaraj
It was a bitter experience for me to see how my input, work was under estimated by the top management...
Tarry
[Edited by marist89 on 04-11-2002 at 09:37 AM]
Ah, a little hint here folks. If you stop posting to this thread, it will go away...
------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by ggnanaraj
It was a bitter experience for me to see how my input, work was under estimated by the top management... ofcouse, they realized it only lately. I have seen this attitude SOME PEOPLE THINK ONLY THEIR CONTRIBUTION IS GREAT . . . and belittle others.
--------------------------------------------------------------
You have taken a good decision not to join the old company.
If I were in your shoes, I would do the same thing.
Never look back the old company in your entire life.
Never work in a company that does not value your work.
Never work in a company that think machine is superior than human beings.
Never work under a boss who is not in IT field.
I agree with all of the above, especially with the last one (about the boss).Quote:
Originally posted by tamilselvan
Never look back the old company in your entire life.
Never work in a company that does not value your work.
Never work in a company that think machine is superior than human beings.
Never work under a boss who is not in IT field.