Certified DBA and So What?

I casually browse the Forums section and notice a bunch of guys got cerfitied but no jobs. My question is whether or not OCP is worth all the effort and cost? Oracle Corporation's stocks look like being trashed on Nasdaq trading floor these few days. Cheers still.

I always hire experience over certification. If I am looking at two candidates that have similar experience, I might give the nod to the person that has the OCP, but not always. There are lots of people out there that have gotten their OCP and still don't know squat about Oracle.

If I am looking to fill an entry level slot, I might look at somebody that has no experience but has shown the initiative to go out and get the OCP.

I understand lots of guru does not like ocp.
To me OCP is like college degree (4 years), but worth more. With ocp you can get an interview, and opportunity to prove yourself.

Now, to all those guru, try to take first test without real study, and honestly let us know how you did it. You suppose to make 100%, because you act like, who knows every thing!

Thanks

Hardly. Possessing an OCP shows that you can read a $99 book and get 66% of the questions right on a $125 test. When interviewing OCP's I always like to ask them why they got certified. The ones that got their OCP to make more money or be more marketable get shown the door. Those people that do it to become a better DBA or for personal satisfaction are the people who I pay more attention to.

Hi, Jeff,

Do you have some positions available right now or in the near future for entry level DBA role? I think i'm the person who really want to become better DBA.

Thanks,
Please contact with me if you like:
[email protected]

Dear Mr. Hunter:

Have you taken any of the test, you are criticizing about your self.

How long you are hiring, or interviewing oracle dba?

Without reading (as you say $99 book), you will not going to know what is new…………
By the way Math 101, book also cost around $99 (today's market), when I took it years ago. Do you think that is worthless?

You may have some problem with Oracle Corp, but do not take it out of some one who trying to learns and make them better oracle professionals.

By the way, I am an Oracle certified dba, for last 3 years. I got my ocp after two years of experience. I believe I learn lots of additional issues while studying for ocp test.

Thanks for your inside, I may need to use, how to answer your kind of mindset when I go for my next interview.

Thanks,

I am with Mariest
I am not a guru neither an OCP but I consider experience over certification is better. You might wonder why, simply because certification is academic.
I used to have a friend who was really good at Maths because he spent the wholeday doing exercises but same style of exercises unfortunately when the style of exam changed he couldnt do it at all.
A while back someone posted in this forum saying that he is an OCP but he couldnt answer any of the question which were being posted in the forum and he was requesting for some advices of how to deal the kind of qwuestions that are been asked here
I am planning to take OCP exams but just to boost self confidence and learn details that I probably never use

Its a winning combination for experience + Certification

what say you ?

Cheers
HS

Hi all,
Those peoplewho did not get certification(may be they tried
but didn't succeed and they get the job with some presure)
offcourse they will never like to be on OCP side!!

I know some of them who get the job after attending
some classeson Oracle and a BIG PRESURE(big guy belongs to
the company in they hired as DBA) and after 10 to 15 years of
experience they become .....!! GURU..!!!!!

Oraman, i strongly agree with you.
Mr. hunter and pando, how you get your first job as DBA?

HTH,

Oracle DBA position always ask EXPERIENCE. Would any experienced Oracle DBA like to tell what real Oracle DBA experience he or she had when found the first Oracle DBA job, and that 'experience' is better than having OCP certificate? After became Oracle DBA, just staying in DBA position you can say you have experience. When other experienced DBA got certified, what reason makes you think that only with experience can be better than experience plus OCP? Be brave to show people you could get 70% correct in all OCP tests because you are so experienced.

Well said niata

Quote:

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Originally posted by OraMan

Have you taken any of the test, you are criticizing about your self.

How long you are hiring, or interviewing oracle dba?

Without reading (as you say $99 book), you will not going to know what is new…………
By the way Math 101, book also cost around $99 (today's market), when I took it years ago. Do you think that is worthless?

You may have some problem with Oracle Corp, but do not take it out of some one who trying to learns and make them better oracle professionals.

By the way, I am an Oracle certified dba, for last 3 years. I got my ocp after two years of experience. I believe I learn lots of additional issues while studying for ocp test.

Thanks for your inside, I may need to use, how to answer your kind of mindset when I go for my next interview.

Thanks,

---

Whether I am or am not certified is irrelevent, that's not the point. The point I was trying to make is that the underlying reason a person gets their OCP says alot about their character and their motivation. Take yourself for example. You obviously studied for your OCP to learn about other features of Oracle. I think that is great, you should be very proud of yourself. I don't have anything against Oracle Corp., I think the OCP program is great for the purpose it was intended for.

The thing that peeves me about ANY certification program is they eventually get tainted by people with no experience taking the tests and passing themselves off as experts. It happened with the CNE (Novell) program years ago and it is happening today with MCSE, MCSD, CCIE, OCP and every other certification track out there.

I believe the ideal starting point for a DBA is in the development realm. Start to get to know SQL, PL/SQL, Stored Procedures/Packages, relational design, indexing theory, etc. As you learn more about how databases operate in general, you will start to learn more about Oracle. When you've got 2 years of programming experience and are genuinely interested in DBA work, you're ready to be a Jr. DBA. I know the salaries attract alot of people to want to be a DBA. Believe me, it's not for everybody; 2:00 AM pages, 36 hour recoveries, working every other weekend during downtime.

This is what I am talking about:
http://www.dbasupport.com/forums/sho...?threadid=8268

Vimalp I started as junior developer for 2 months then switched to DBA position because i told the boss I was interested in system administration when he was looking for one

I have barely 9 months experience as DBA and I have not studied for any OCP exams yet although I do plan to take them, the reason that I havent taken any yet is because I am weak with PL/SQL (that´s why i esaped from my developer position ;) ). I do read quite a few technical papers. When I have nothing to do I do some STS tests since I have quite a few (about 3000 questions :D), yesterday I took 60 questions on Oracle 8 Admin STS and I scored 54 without reading a book. The point OraMan states is that no one who reads the book could score 100%, 100% is a tricky word I dont think I can score 100% in a test even I study very hard

Certifications are good but look at Microsoft certifications, they used to be popular and they were a good way to get you a job but look how they stand these days now

So i still agree 100% with Mariest

I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with everyones comments regarding becoming OCP. But here is my perspective.

I was a DBA for over 6 years using Oracle Rdb. Realizing my skill set is no longer sought by employers (Oracle Rdb is basically dead), I have decided to learn Oracle 8/8i and become certified. Why? Because everytime I apply for a DBA job, I am asked if I know Oracle. The answer is yes. When I am asked how long have I used Oracle, the answer is 6 months. Therefore, my resume is rejected because to the recruiter/hiring manager/whomever, "I don't know Oracle". However, if I were an OCP, then I would be able to demonstrate that I do have a knowledge of Oracle and possibly get that job. Would I be a guru? Of course not. Am I cheating? Possibly. Am I trying to make myself more marketable. Absolutely. I sure beats being unemployed. But I certainly know my skill level and I would not accept a Senior position until I had more practical "hands on" experience and could learn from a guru.

So I say go ahead and become certified especially if it helps you get a job. But keep in mind, that being certified implies a certain level of knowledge and you better be able to perform at that level.

If you aren't certified you cannot get a job....If you cannot get a job you cannot gain experience .... I agree that no one should pass themselves off as experts BUT EVERYONE LIES TO GET THE JOB...how much does HR actually know? I have only been to 1 interview where they actually tested me (and i passed) . All the others take your word and judge what you say (and i have talked to senior db level and up)

Please tell me how you are supposed to get started without at least a head start with the OCP ??? I agree with smcdmc about what its like trying to get a job.

I have been working on MS SQL stuff for 3 years and my resume has been turned down 20 or so times BECAUSE I didn't have MCSE ... now I have that paper and 'lo and behold I get job offers ...

Now I want to get out of the 75k salary and move up to Oracle DBA and without experience in oracle stuff I doubt I will get far. SO I am planning on getting my OCP and saying that I have 3 years experience in DBA stuff...

I am competing against dozens of resumes where the stupid HR people are comparing years of experience and certs AND THATS IT...THAT is the real way things are done in LA ...SO the only way to get a job is get your cert and LIE about experience...Everyone gets the job and then LEARNS while there....every ISP I know has their DB's learning on the job...

The bottom line is companies want good people but DONT WANT TO PAY TOO MUCH...so they take those with less experience so they can pay them less and they learn as they go...
So I guess what I am saying is take the test even if you don't have experience with it ... then learn what you can on your own and LIE to get the job which will give you the experience you need :)

[Edited by Ionstorm on 03-23-2001 at 06:07 PM]

OCP has value. But honestly, who here would hire based solely upon a certification, without considering the rest of a person's knowledge and experience? Not me!

Clearly, someone who cannot learn/comprehend the subject matter cannot pass the tests; nor can someone without commitment. For these reasons alone, there is value to certification. In addition, there is value to the academic study of this field, and it does prepare you for a JR DBA type role, particularly with a CS degree and/or some other IT experience such as programming or xbase to go along with it.

Of the three opportunities to promote youself (education, experience, certification), clearly experience is by far the most powerful. However, a college education in CS does indicate you probably have a wide base of general IT knowledge and an aptitude for the field that can be very useful. Certification is similar to education in that it is book learning rather than work experience. However, that OCP does prove that at least once, you understood in a general way the breadth of Oracle's capabilities. It is kind of superficial, but it complements experience nicely, particularly if you have long experience at a small or limited-functionality shop. For example, if you have only worked at a 9-5 OLTP shop running a few production instances at most, you might not even understand advanced replication or parallel server, and might not use RMAN or any external backup software at all. But if you have OCP, I know you've at least been exposed to the basics of it, and could probably get up to speed quickly given your other knowledge of Oracle.

By itself, OCP is clearly far less valuable than either experience or a college education, and in that circumstance probably approaches zero value. It shows some determination and interest in Oracle when combined with college, and indicates a more complete DBA when combined with significant DBA experience.

Friends,

No point in getting perturbed....we should accept the fact...always EXPERIENCE wins over CERTIFICATION....

I do agree completing OCP requires effort and enduarnce...
There are myriad proportions who after completing their OCP stumble even at the first hurdle.

Pando and Jeff are clear in what they mean, may be Jeff would have put strong words saying he would prefer people self motivated rather than money minded. DBA is a responsible position and a mission critical job where we can't try a raw hand.

Yes it is tough to start a career as a DBA, so it is in all discipline.

Certification can be a value addition, but it is not all.

There is always scope for learning at any moment what ever the experience one may have.

CERTIFICATION and EXPERIENCE goes hand in hand, let us try to accept FACT.

Nanda.

Hi !

I agree that certification alone doesn't convert a person into DBA.But I feel that everyone who address themselves as experienced ,should have been a fresher at one point of time either with or without certification.If they had the confidence to become a DBA, whynot the certified without experience.

1. An experienced DBA proves that he/she has reached the current step.
2. A certified person shows that he/she has potential to go further than his standing point.

Both must be needed to become a good DBA, in a standard viewpoint.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think an OCP without experience is rated similarly to a 1yr Jr. DBA since that person proves that he/she is capable of learning on the job.

To become a DBA is merely an opportunity.

I've been working as Oracle DBA for many years, and I still think the OCP is important. OCP is not just a certificate, is a real skill. That's why I spent some time to study and prepare the test, and I passed and got certified. I like to encourage those people who are preparing OCP, whatever your level is, take your OCP, guarantee you will benefit from it.

I have been an Oracle DBA for five years and found that there when I came into the consulting biz, people just wanted buzz words and I used the certification books as the fastest way to get up to date with the latest.

Experience is important, but a person can be at one company for a while and learn very little new. Experience is good but based on the quality, not quantity of it. The OCP helps fill in gaps that even someone with varied experience can do with.

Granted the amount of cheet questions I see here do prove that some with their OCP don't deserve it. OCP or non OCPs have no right looking down each other. We all know how difficult it is to be a DBA (and those without experience will soon find out). I do plead though that those rattling of cheat questions should stop. It is because of those of you that do, that the OCP will lose it's credit worthiness. OCP should complement not replace experience.

I am just begining mine and the reason for it is to be a better DBA AND to be more marketable. What's wrong with more money? I think with the erratic lives DBAs live they bloody deserve it.

Wish me luck,
Nirasha

sigh.... experience comes from time. Every experienced person had the time when he/she did not have any experince.

I cleared my OCP ORACLE8 dba 2 days back. And I feel that the point of discussion here is baseless.
I think we all are mercineries and we all have to fight it out there. A person who has no interest in Oracle and has passed OCP just to earn $s will ultimatlely end nowhere.
So cool it off guys and help me find a job.

I've been and working with Oracle for 8 years. 2 years as a developer. I have never gone for my OPC because I been to busy to find the time. I think that's the primary reason for people not getting certified. With my experience I know I can find another job if I choose but I'm studing for my OPC. The reason is that it's an accomplishment that I want to obtain personally. I don't think it will have any bearing on me getting my next job.

I guess what I'm trying to say to everyone is that it shouldn't be a controversial matter but a matter of ones own preference. I know that obtaining my OPC will only be an advantage to my career and not detrimental to it. So go for it if you can find the time but don't feel as though it's a must have.

Dennis

I agree with the last post. Each to their own. When going for a job you are going to be asked practical questions - not just theory. I'm new to Oracle having only 5 months experience and I find the OCP exams invaluable with helping me with my day to day duties and keeping my learning curve steep. Sure I want to pass them to increase the chance of more $'s, but whats the point in taking short cuts and passing the exams only to be tripped up further down the line when the lack of deep understanding becomes apparent.
Theory is only any good if you can practically apply it

Hi, 10th May 2001 16:13 hrs chennai

As Nirasha has told The OCP helps to fill the gaps in our exp.

I am also an OCP DBA.So i dont deny exp doesnt count.

Its better you have both.A fresh DBA can gain exp only over years.So we cannot quantify his exp or neglect but over the years he becomes the GURU.

But while this process goes on if he takes OCP it motivates him to achieve more and fill the gaps what he would have missed during real time scenarios.DBA is a Ocean.

Since IT a process of continued learning and real time exp
DBA=OCP+EXP is true.

Cheers

Padmam

Good DBA = Experience + Certification

When you prepare your Resume and if you are OCP certified, it is like Icing on the cake. U get logo and your resume looks more graceful.

I don't need all the knowledge that OCP is asking for my day-to-day Administration activities. I prefer spending my time on the stuff I needed( new release feature implementation, automation of dba activities etc) rather the stuff in $99 book for OCP. I stay at work 10-12 hours a day spending my time scheduling my maintenance work off biz hours (You know, I don't wanna go thru stupid e-mail chain for getting authorization to bring database down for maintenance during biz hours), in writing standards for new features implementation, in reading some docs to implement new features or in exchanging knowledge here at dbasupport.com etc., Weekends I travel home. Tell me whats the possibility for me to go thru each and every page of that $99 books. Here I didn't mean to say I don't find time to prepare, all I am saying is I can spend that time towards the ground work for tomorrows tasks to be done in better/efficient way.

Of course! I do want to be an OCP. Neither for money nor for to be a better DBA( I can be better DBA with no OCP. My Manager, My Director and My team knows that and they could say the same even to new firm Manager who wants to hire me) Just for HR who wants to see OCP in my resume cuz, he has been asked to look for that kay word 'OCP' while sorting out resumes. I miss sometimes the right oppurtunity for one and only reason that they couldn't find OCP key word in my resume.

I had debate with my manager and team on this topic couple of months ago. My Manager says exactly what Jeff said. If there are two dba's sorted in final list for recruitement (one with ocp, one without ocp) Preference will be given to the one with OCP. A OCP Certified is considered as DBA if he/she could interpret what they read in book practically and answer practical interview Qs. No matter you have experience or not you will be hired, if you can answer the Qs. All a Manager look forward to have from dba`s is how practical they are in performing database administration activities.

I do undertand(now I can feel it as started preparation) its not that easy to be Real OCP Certified ('Real' means what 'nirasha' says, not just getting chit sheets, STS s/w Qs etc). Its much more difficult to be on the system and bring up the database, when the database is down with some problem and 200 users including Directors or CEO are waiting for you to bring up the database. Beleive me! Tthe kinda situation a DBA/Sysadmin will be in sometimes... days, nights will pass -everybody will be coming in and going out but, dba stays assuming 24 hours is his/her daytime(No EST,PST :)).

So, If you are not OCP and look forward to have career in that Path, the first step towards your new career path is get certified. If you have experience, expertise and time Get Certified with which you can add little weight to your resume.

Thats all I wanted to say. Your Comments are Welcome !

Hi, 12th May 2001 14:45 hrs Madras

I am very neutral and honest on this issue .Its not me in Favour or Against any party.

==================
Benefits to the IT Employer

The Oracle Certified Professional Program is valuable to hiring managers who want to distinguish among candidates for critical IT positions. For companies that send employees through annual IT training, certification ensures a return on the training investment by validating the knowledge and understanding gained in training sessions. Companies can also combine certification with an employee development program to enhance employee loyalty and performance on the job.

Hiring certified professionals has a direct impact on a company's bottom line, as these conclusions from a research study by International Data Corporation** suggest:
------------------------------------------------
Certified professionals handled 40% more support calls per person, per day, than uncertified staff.
Companies that advocated certification reported 49% less downtime than those that did not.
For the majority of companies surveyed, the savings from increased effectiveness paid the costs of certification in fewer than nine months

http://www.oracle.com/education/cert...ycert_roi.html

http://www.oracle.com/education/cert...rt_become.html
===============

I dont deny a 10 year exp as waste but at the same a 10year plus a certified professional stand out distinclty when a opportunity comes for both for a position considering both are equally good in DBA over the years.The company will naturally go for certified person.

If a fresher at entry level without certification and a fresher with a certification who stands chance ?

there are severall combinations where exp DBA can chance better than fresh certified etc.

But as per the trend and market or by analyzed survey companies prefer to train there staff and get them certified.

Even in SEI CMM level or ISO 9001 companies are proud to assess there knowledge base for annual review to the above bodies how many certified professionals they have.

I wont say certificate is not needed but its a added VALUE or ADVANTAGE.

Mere bookies cookies getting certification is of no use too.

Cheers

Padmam

I strongly agree with Padmam.

Hi all,
I'm agree with padman.

I feel that completing your certification should be desirable for any current or aspiring dba. The DBA's who think they know it all and can't learning anything by completing your certification, you're dreaming. Even if your pick up one new thing on your road to certification, you should consider it worthwhile.

So study and sit your certification exams, and if you tell me you didn't learn anything new, it didn't help clarify any points for you, doesn't give you more confidence in your role and doesn't give you a remote advantage over other dbas without certification... then basically, I'd call you a liar.

Hi Guys
I am agree what Padman is saying.

Good DBA = Experience + Certification

Thanks

As someone who has worked with Oracle for 3+ years, I have decided to get OCP certified, and in the process found that there are a lot of things I did not know. Try asking a 'guru' about parallel query server if the site he works at doesn't use it. Would he know how to answer? Probably not.

No one uses Oracle to the max of it's capabilities that I am aware of, so I am taking the OCP for two reasons - to gain additional knowledge and insight, and to prove to an employer that I know my stuff.

Certainly an employer should not hire just because someone is certified, but in taking the test I will have increased my knowledge and be prepared for whatever they ask me.

And don't criticize someone if they do it for more money - if they know their stuff but aren't getting the respect (read: pay) they deserve then this is a way for them to become more marketable. Let's face it, I'm not reading these Oracle Press books because I love the author's writing style.

Money is not my #1 motive, but it is at least on the list. Gurus have to start somewhere, and working a site for several years is going to make most motivated people into one. Try moving to another company who uses different functionality in their systems, and tell yourself you were really a guru.

I have resigned myself to the fact that I will never know everything about Oracle, but if in my studies I can learn more then I'm a better person for it. Any company who hired because someone had a piece of paper (certification or degree) gets what they deserve. If they don't ask technical questions then a 'paper MCSE or OCP' would most likely slide on by.

grrickar, your words express my opinion of the matter also. People can be gurus in their specific roles, on the same job site they've worked for a number of years. But you need to re-educate yourselves every once in a while and certification helps redefine your skills and let you learn things about Oracle you didn't previously.

Even Oracle themselves have people dedicated to only ONE area of Oracle because they can't be expected to know EVERY single thing about the product.

Sure, Oracle certification doesn't make you an expert, sit all 8i exams, then sit down with me and lets talk Oracle Intermeda/Text indexing. This part of Oracle Server can only be learnt on the job, but certification will teach you many things you didn't know previously.

Also, I think Oracle books have put me to sleep more times than any other type of book, I don't read the books because of the writting style either, I read to pick up new things. The same reason I scroll through Oracle forums religously looking for people having issues like mine or trying to help others.

At the same time, there is a part of me who wants to be rewarded. I like to think I'm good at my role, if I gain certification to enforce my ability and receive a salary increase, hey bonus.

Basically thought, the benefits of certification far outweigh any reason for not becoming certified...but, basically it's up to the individual, I don't care if you don't do certification, I'd much rather come up against you at my next interview than another certified professional anyway.

Quote:

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Originally posted by grjohnson

Basically thought, the benefits of certification far outweigh any reason for not becoming certified...but, basically it's up to the individual, I don't care if you don't do certification, I'd much rather come up against you at my next interview than another certified professional anyway.

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Above reason is the best reason for an experienced guy to get certification keeping aside the thought of OCP is good or bad, helps or not. Certainly helps not to miss the right opportunity.

This Certification stuff also depends on which country you are I would guess, in Spain where I am noone ask for certification, you mention OCP they dont even have a clue what is OCP about

Hi pando,
Good JOKE.....hi..e.....e....e :o
Joke of the forum!!!

it is not a joke, it is the truth and the only truth, if I am correct I dont think OCP is very popular in UK neither

So when I read things like certified professional receives more demand in calls... I just have to think I wish this happens in Spain. Just a point, MCSE are not very popular in Spain you rarely see a job offer asking for MCSE, you see them few times sometimes I see people asking for CCiE and that's it. I have only seen twice eployers actually wrote

oracle certification is appreciated (they dont even write OCP because as I said no one knows OCP here)

[Edited by pando on 05-17-2001 at 06:29 PM]