Vapor Oracle experience.... Ethical dilema
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Thread: Vapor Oracle experience.... Ethical dilema

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
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    Question

    One great thing about the Net is that people can speak what they really think how the world works without having to reveal their true identity, complete opposite of a politician, who are not allowed to speak the truth, only what they think people want to hear, and as you folks know, a lot of times, people want to be lied, as long as it makes them look good, feel good, without making them look like fools.



    Now, I'm not here to talk philosophy, I think it's something real that concerns people like me, L-cavrone and others. As Jeff and Julian stated, one has to have experience before one can become DBA, but objectively how many years, and on what kind of production environment? Some might say 2 years, 3 years, 5years.

    I have a friend who owns 1-man consulting firm, and he told me that he would help me by providing Vapor Oracle experience, once I finish Oracle workshop and get OCP certified. Only condition was that I have to look for the job outside Omaha, he doesn't want to be exposed and lose creditbility, it's a small town. When I asked him about ethics, he told me that most people in any profession would lie to get the job, as long as they think they can get away with it, and they think they are qualifed, forget about morals, everybody pretends in public as if they care, but very few people do, not when the stakes are high, don't be such a blushing virgin, he said. Look at Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, they are notorious for "vapor ware", intentionaly misleading clients and competitors, a lof CIT's career were ruined thanks to Larry Ellison in 80's. I also know some students who created ficitional businesses to help each other with vapor references. They all got the jobs.



    What's your take on this? Please be completely honest, you are neither Bill Clinton nor Gary Condit.
    Trying to remain objective, since one can always be wrong.....without knowing it at the moment.

  2. #2
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    You are correct about me THEGUY ; getting over the "experience" thing may turn out to be more difficult then the certification itself.

    As for my take on your question; my main concern would be the "experience" in say , Skill A, that is listed via vapor oracle experience......the first day on the job you are asked to display Skill A.......you know about Skill A but obviously not enough or it wouldn't be on the list of "experience" in the first place. If you can't perform and the belief becomes that you are not quite what you claim then it may have more effect then with just that company. You obviously cannot use them as a reference and the possibility exists that they could pass your less than stellar info along to other potential employers. Why else is the vapor provider asking you to go look outside of town !?!? Yes once you get in a company and get some actual experience and prove yourself it doesn't really matter but that is the chance isn't it? I myself would rather exagerrate a bit on what I have done then create something that never was.

    My 0.02

    Good luck
    Have any advice for a DBA-in-training? Any links that helped you better understand Oracle? General items of Oracle interest? Please send them here:

    jforacle@yahoo.com

    Thanks!

    John (Cincy, OH)

  3. #3
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    You'll be caught out very quickly in DBA land. Bull****ting in an interview is one thing...creating a production database with an inappropriate block size is another.
    OCP 8i, 9i DBA
    Brisbane Australia

  4. #4
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    Waterloo, On
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    I think TheGuy is right to a point.
    In the short term, one might gain (an entry into a company, for example). This is what selling yourself 'hard' means. Make your profile exactly as the employer wants. Exaggerate your achievements. Say yes to all skills.
    In the long term: I doubt.
    If one gets into the habit of lying, I mean. Its easy to lie to a few people some of the time. Its impossible to lie (successfully) to all the people all the time.

    Interesting Topic though!

  5. #5
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    you can bs to a HR guy not a technical person


  6. #6
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    I agree with all of the message posted as the above. Nowaday, people think that they can easily get cetified without knowing what is Oracle all about. To all of the people, in this forum, I think they need respect to some other peers in here and in the same industry instead of ruining our reputation and ethics.

    You can lie and bs to the HR guy but you can lie to technical person, plus if you can get the job, how are you going to perform in your job if you don't know what you suppose to do. I am not trying to be mean and rude to some poeple in this forum but I sincerely ask you guys learn Oracle first and be certifired when you think you are good instead of going in here begging for the material or information abouut the test. To all who have the test material, please don't posted it in here b/c you can make a couple hundred bucks in here but sooner or later your certified is not meaning a thing in this world. This forum is helping each others result our problem not to exchange test information.

    Thank you all and please respects some other peers in this industry

  7. #7
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    Damarks fired a DBA on the spot becuase he lost a datafile with no backup. I know because the fired guy started teaching in a college soon after.

    More than the ethical question, is a moral question:
    Do you want to screw a company and probably cost them millions of dollars just because you are desparate for a job for which you are not qualified?

    This is not much different from an unqualified doctor doing brain surgery or a plumber prescribing medicine.

    [Edited by kris109 on 09-04-2001 at 02:02 PM]

  8. #8
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    Cool

    I am not stating that I am going to do it. Let's get real, almost everyone tries to put their most positive aspects, and hide their most negative aspects, Nobody is perfect, and nobody is going to volunteer all the stupid mistakes as a professional to a prospective employer. Right?

    Speaking of morals, as IT pros, I'm sure everyone knows what "vapor ware" means. Right?


    It's an intentionaly misleading existing and future customers, into not committing themselves in to superior(real or imagined) competitor's products, by falsely implying they have similar or superior product due in the very near future, whether they really have it or not. Do you think they are doing this because they are eithical or moral people, come on , give me a break! It's all about money.
    How many CIO lost their heads in 80's because they listened to Larry Ellison's pitch! Or Mr.Bill Gates started Microsoft, because he wanted to make the world a better place. Ha Ha Ha Ha. I'm sure there are some old timers agreeing with all this, but afraid to post because they don't look like a cad.

    Anyway, I kind of got a little bit of moral confidence, I will use his reference as an unpaid intern outside Omaha.
    Trying to remain objective, since one can always be wrong.....without knowing it at the moment.

  9. #9
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    Jun 2001
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    I have known several people who have bluffed their way through NT. But Oracle is much too complicated.

    If you did managed to get a job would you honestly trust yourself to administer a companie's production database?.

    Its one think to create a legend to get a job supporting Windows9x, NT workstation etc, but as a DBA where the companies revenue stream, financial existence and the liveliwood of workers and dependents are in your hands it would be downright irresponsible. If through your actions you cost the company dear would you then just move to the next town and carry on regardless.

    I am now trying to get a NT role with a company that runs an Oracle database and try to get in this way. By all means take the good reference from your friend but I don't think you should over represent your Oracle experience.

    Its good that you say you wont necessarily do it. Becoming a DBA takes time. You have to be in it for the long haul.






  10. #10
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    I think everyone is over-emphasising on what heavens are going to fall if an incompetent person becomes a DBA in a mission critical environment of a top notch comany.
    In this overenthusiasm, the real point is lost.

    The issue is:

    (a) Whether its correct for employers to ask for 'experienced' candidates for entry level positions. In the bargain, are'nt they 'encouraging' prospective candidates like THEGUY to overexaggerate their skills and achievements?

    (b) Whether people with 'vapour experience' exist in the profession. (Most of them might be doing well, I guess, in senior positions now!). More important, do 'reputed' companies use 'vapour ware' to get ahead of competitors? Don't they succeed ?

    I think we stop moralising for a minute and think about this. I am sure no horse doc can manage to get an entry into DBA profession by 'Vapour experience'. I am not justifying vapour experience. But dont we all exaggerate our competence when desperate to get an entry? If the employer is smart, he can judge real competence from your external shell. If not, make hay!


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